Minutes from November´s Extrication & New Technology Meeting
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Dear Commission members,
Please find the draft minutes of the much appreciated meeting in Wörth am Rhein, Germany. Preliminary information next meeting: next meeting will be in Poitiers, France, during the Technical days (13-14-15 of May).
Commission meeting will be programmed on Thursday 14/5 and/or Friday 15/5, according to the most efficient time and moment.
Members of the Commission are free to decide on participation to the Technical Days, but are expected to attend the Commission’s meeting, if present in Poitiers at that moment.
More information will follow soon!
Maj. Tom Van Esbroeck
Chairman Commission for Extrication & New Technology
Minutes Winter Meeting - Commission for Extrication and New Technologies of CTIF
Wörth am Rhein – 12 and 13th of November 2019
Thursday 12th of November 2019
- Opening of the meeting
Tom opens the meeting and welcomes all participants. He is happy to see some new faces, who will present themselves soon to the Commission. He thanks Ruediger for organizing the meeting and extracurricular activities.
With regards to the agenda that has been sent to the members, a little adjustment has to be made: unfortunately, the visit of the indoor drones is not possible on Thursday.
- Roll call of the participants
Every participant gives a short presentation of himself/herself.
- Welcome by Ruediger
Ruediger wishes all participants a warm welcome. He gives a short presentation about Wörth am Rhein and its fire service, where he is a member.
- Approval of the minutes of last meeting in Valencia:
There are no remarks, which means that the minutes are accepted.
- Approval of agenda
→ Thursday 12/12: WORKSHOP SMART TECHNOLOGY - Projects & Discussions:
- Solar Panels (Tore)
- Report from Abu Dhabi (Ivana)
- RPAS info sheet (Mark)
- Data analysis
- JRC (Kurt)
- C.E.R.S. (Ruediger)
Friday 13/12: WORKSHOP EXTRICATION/ ISO 17840 - Projects & Discussions
- ISO 17840 plan of action implementation (Kurt)
- Euro NCAP (Tom and Kurt): the app will be presented, although it is still under construction
- Battery tests (Michel): because of the absence of Michel, this subject is delayed to a next meeting. It is not possible to show the films that have been made of this battery tests, without authorization. The films will be shown in one of the next meetings.
- EU projects: Hyresponder, HyTunnel, + suggestion of a new project: Erasmus+ (Tom)
- Training (Mikko)
- Self Extrication (UK – Mike Dayson)
This is the overview of the activities of the Commission, which has to be presented to the CTIF Delegates Assembly. Tom didn’t manage to finish the curriculum in time, in order to present it to the members and get their approval. He will sent it by mail to the members.
TO DO: Tom: write the curriculum and share with the members of the Commission
TO DO: Commission members: give the approval or remarks for the curriculum.
- Next meetings
Normally the spring meeting of the Commission is planned at the same time as the Technical Days on 12th-14th of May in France. EuroNCAP will also be at the Technical Days and will launch their application for the rescue sheets. Because of the link with the ISO-project, Tom says it is important to be there as a Commission and do this launch together. Michel is helping with the organization of the Technical Days, and will try to arrange for the Commission to participate also as a speaker.
Tom will not be able to participate, and Michel (as vice-chair) will be busy with the organization. He asks the members if it would be interesting to combine the Technical Days with the next Commission meeting. He also proposes the possibility of virtual meetings, in order to reduce the number of ‘live’ meetings.
Apart from the spring meeting, a second meeting has to be organized in the second half of 2020, because the Commission has to choose a new chair. Tom suggests to combine this with the next CTIF Symposium on New Technologies, which will be organized in Oslo, Norway, at the end of October.
Tom asks the members to think about this proposals, the Commission will decide together tomorrow.
- Presentation New Members
The new members give a short introduction about their professional and personal skills : Mister Marco Aimo-Boot, Miss Yvonne Nasman and Mister Joël Biever.
Workshop Smart Technology
→ Data analysis
Ruediger focuses on the importance of having data available in order to improve SOP and training. He explains the German C.E.R.S. (Critical Emergency Response System) data sheet, which is originally pushed by the insurance companies because they want to know what the reason for the accident is: did it happen because of a problem with the vehicle or a component of it, was the driver responsible, … ?
Although the focus is now mainly on extrication, it would be interesting to have the same kind of information about incidents involving fire, dangerous goods etc.
Yvonne confirms and explains that Canada and the US are prepared to share their data, but that it is very difficult to get access to this information in Europe. This is very unfortunate, because data can lead to research, which can lead to new guidelines for firefighters.
Tom adds that it could even lead to ‘lessons learned’.
Ruediger warns not to lose sight of the quality of the data, and to not only focus on the amount/quantity of data.
Wolfgang stresses that this data should be available at all time, not only just after an accident.
Kurt explains that he has made a google form that can be sent to officers who were confronted with a certain type of accident. He will present this later on.
Ivana asks of the presented C.E.R.S data form is something separate from the report that has to be made after every incident. Ruediger confirms that it is a separate document, and because of that Ivana wonders if it would not be easier to have just one set of data. It is also important to establish if the information we really need is available in the reports.
All members agree on the need of qualitative data and the wish for some kind of universal database.
Tore mentions an earlier project, in which CTIF was involved via the HazMat commission. They created a similar database, with different countries, but it ended because of a reorganization of the service and it was no longer a priority.
Ivana sums up the three needs that must be attended concerning data: the need for information about certain types of incidents, the need for propagation of experience with these types of incidents and the need for this experience to be available on the spot, on the accident.
Christian also advocates for a common platform or database, maybe hosted by CTIF. If you see how many people are making video’s and putting this on internet, it should be possible for the firefighters as well.
Ivana sees a bit of a conflict in between having the information available and keeping it secure and in line with GDPR regulations.
Could Europe play a role in this, for example via the Joint Research Center? Tom says that even they don’t succeed in getting the data. It’s easy to set up databases, but difficult to get it filled up.
Marco thinks a government should oblige to fill in the data. Tore says that it is not so easy and that there are cultural problems between countries who want to share information and those who don’t. He suggests that the statistics center of CTIF could give some support in this matter.
Yvonne says that it is very important to explain the advantages of filling in this data, which are interesting, not only for the firefighters but also the industry.
Ivana mentions the question of the reliability of the data
Tom closes this discussion on this very interesting topic. He suggest to work further on this topic via virtual meetings. Apart from the questions that are already mentioned, there also has to be looked for resources (payment of researchers and developers etc).
Marco suggests to check in each CTIF member country which data is already available, and which registration systems already exist.
Tom asks Ivana to write something out as a starting document.
TO DO: Ivana: write a starting document concerning the collection of qualitative and reliable data on incidents where firefighters get involved.
TO DO: Tom: prepare a planning for virtual meetings
→ Meeting in Abu Dabi: Ivana was asked by Tom to participate in this meeting, because the program seemed to be focused on robotics. She explains that it was a 3 day event, on which the first day was composed of different workshops around disasters, emergencies and crises. She did a presentation about her project and managed to follow some other presentations although the organization was not very good. The two other days were more official and focused on giving information about to the United Emirates on how emergency response is organized in the world, so that they could learn from it. Ivana didn’t learn anything about how this is organized in the United Emirates. She passes a brochure from the meeting, as well as a book from one of the people with whom she had contact prior to the meeting.
Concerning the representation of CTIF and this Commission, she thinks it would be interesting to add some general information in each presentation on similar events.
Tore says it’s important to spread knowledge and expertise and that it’s good that members of this commission participate in official meetings and seminar.
→ RPAS Info sheet: Mark has sent this document in September by mail to the members, but will repeat the mail. He explains that this is the result of a project in collaboration with the university of Twente. This focused on how to detect hazardous goods via a sensor package installed on a drone (40 sensors and 26 measuring cells) . This means certain advantages, such as there is no longer need to use measuring tools at the scene, so people can take enough distance from the goods. He also mentions the possibility of taking samples with this drone. They developed a prototype, that is being used since October for experiments. He hopes that the industry will further develop the prototype and make it available for all emergency services at an interesting price.
Tom hands out the ”NFPA Standard about Small Unmanned Aircraft Systems (sUAS) used for public safety operations” (2019) to the participants. He received this documents from Donald Bliss, former president of the NFPA. Tom asked for this standard, because in Europe we are struggling with regulation around using drones by first and second responders. This document could give some counsel.
TO DO: Tom: send the information to the members
→ Solar panels: Tore says that a new manual has been developed in Swedish, but it is not yet translated. There has been put a lot of effort in creating good images. He presents this manual via a PowerPoint. He stresses that there are also some scenarios that can be used for training.
Franz says that he also has a good presentation but only in German. Would it be interesting to translate this to English?
Tom says it would be interesting to come to one presentation, that can be used by everyone.
Ruediger states that it is important to start by listing up what exists concerning solar panels in the member countries. It’s no use to develop something that already exists.
Tore will try to get the permit to translate the Swedish manual.
The members think it would be interesting to put together all the existing information, and make this available for all firefighters – maybe via the CTIF website?
TO DO: Commission: send all the information that exists in their country to Tore and Yvonne. They will look at the material and look for the main guidelines.
Friday the 13th of December 2019
WORKSHOP Extrication / ISO 17840
→ Self-Extrication: Mike does his presentation via Zoom, on how to improve the outcomes of extrication with road accidents, which cause so many deaths and injuries. He explains how a project was started with funds of the Road Safety Trust. The first step was doing research via the use of sensors on test persons. These data about the bodily movements were analyzed through software, that calculated which method of extrication would cause the least movement of, and thus impact on the patient, in case of an extrication. Based on this calculations, different tests were organized, during which test persons used collars in different scenarios via self-extrication (same car, different test people, with and without instructions from the firefighters, …). They also worked with two different approaches: one well-drilled, well-rehearsed crew versus one crew without instructions about the test. This way, a lot of data has been collected.
Early next year three papers will be published concerning this study. They would also like to do a new project about the use of chains, Mike asks if members of the Commission are interested to participate. It seems that Henrik is the specialist in this topic, he can give some good advice.
Ruediger can send a set of material from Weber that they can use for the test.
Mike also poses the question of the necessity of always cutting the roof of an impacted car. This is wat is usually done, but it takes at least 30 minutes – time that the victim is not in the hospital.
Yvonne explains that in Sweden a new protocol has started, with less cutting of the roofs. They are also doing reports and studies about chain rescue and spinal control. The focus will be on the patient, with a different approach of the spinal control, with a different use of the spinal board. She offers to share this with the members.
Henrik says that in Denmark they don’t use the spinal board anymore, but a hydraulic mattress.
TO DO: Commission: share their information about chain rescue and spinal control with Mike, who will take a look at it and give feedback.
→ Training material: Mikko refers to the different training materials concerning extrication that already exist, and how to use and share it. This topic was already discussed at the meeting in Valencia. In the meanwhile, he has talked with the Finnish Rescue Academy and found someone who can work on the material, that was filmed in Brussels. It is important to avoid that people are doing similar things. We also must look how to share the material in an easy way.
Tom confirms that almost all filming material has been sent to Mikko and is glad the Finnish Rescue Academy can help with creating training material. Mikko can be an asset in this, as well as concerning the translation to English.
Tom asks the Commission to confirm this collaboration between the national committees of Belgium and Finland. All members are very happy with this proposal.
TO DO: Tom and Mikko: take further contact about concrete steps in this project
TO DO: Kurt: upload pictures from extrication week and send them through cloud to Mikko
Mikko explains about a problem the Finnish Rescue services encountered with the Russian E-call system, which is different from the European system. The Finnish dispatch center received multiple e-calls from Russian cars, without knowing that they were Russian, near the border. When the Finnish crew arrived on site, they never found anything. Mikko took contact avec Michel, who explained to look for the VIN-number. It turned out to be a Russian type of bus. When the driver starts the bus near the border, it connects to the Finnish system and locates the e-call.
Tom will take this to his meetings about E-Call 2.
→ EuroNCAP app: Kurt demonstrates the app, that is not yet fully developed. The goal is to make available the rescue sheets for all types of cars, to the first responders. From 2020, each car manufacturer has to create a rescue sheet for every new car, in compliance with ISO 17840. This ISO is updated with some new information. The car manufacturers will have a direct link to this database, and can add the rescue sheets, as well as the emergency response guides. It would be interesting to include in this app the buses and trucks.
The members stress the importance of a good communication of this app to the first responders, so that the app will really be used.
The members continue to talk about E-Call 2, which will have additional information such as the position of the car etc. Tom explains that the goals still is to have a worldwide database with all relevant information, but it is not easy to get for free form the car manufacturers. There is Moditech, but is a commercial alternative.
The members stress the importance of also linking the VIN Code to the Rescue sheets. Tom says that it is the goal to always give the VIN number in case of accidents.
It seems that the situation is different in the member states; f.e. in Germany, firefighters can ask information about a car based on the license plate. This depends on the politics of the local government, it is not yet the time for a general policy about this.
Joel wants to know if there is a database with all the VIN-codes.
Tom says that he doesn’t know if it exists yet, but the plan is to add this to the EuroNCAP app.
→ Implementation of ISO 17840: Kurt asks the aid of the members to help to introduce and implement the ISO standard in their countries. A lot of material has been created, and is available on the CTIF website, that can help with this task. All the information is available in 18 different languages.
TO DO: members: try to add as many other languages as possible
Kurt suggests a plan of action in three steps:
- Start by getting the symbols on the fire trucks,
- Contact the public transportation agencies and inform them about the ISO and symbols, and try to get them to implement.
- Contact the companies who use trucks etc. For each category, a whole set of documents has been developed, and can be seen on the website.
Also on the website you can find an explanation about the symbols, and how to print them.
Tom warns the members that it can be difficult to get the implementation. Certain parties saw it as a threat at first, and didn’t want anything that could indicate that those vehicles were dangerous. But luckily, with much talking and explaining, it worked out quite good. For example, in Brussels the symbols are being used on the buses. Tom confirms that there is still a big need of raising awareness by the firefighters about the ISO norm and the importance/advantages.
Marco says that Magirus already applies the symbols. Tom adds that Rosenbauer promised to do it as well, but there is no concrete result right now.
Tom suggests that the members ask the support of their national CTIF Committee. He refers to the Memorandum of Understanding that has been signed between CTIF and UITP. This organization represents more than 100 countries over the whole world. This document can be used as a support for convincing local transportation companies. It is also available for the members.
Kurt says that it is important to realize that it is a voluntary standard, there is no obligation to use it. Hence the importance of a good story to sell the product.
Tore agrees and asks the members to do their best to promote this, especially the use of symbols on the vehicles.
Mikko would like to have a general mail or letter with this information, so that he can start the process.
Tom proposes to make a F.A.Q. with the questions that are being asked right now. This should help everybody in dispersing the ISO and information packages.
TO DO: members: share their questions with Tom
TO DO: Tom: create the F.A.Q.
→Visit to Mercedes-Benz truck factory
→ Different European projects: Tom tells the members about the HyTunnel project, where he represents Belgium together with an officer form the Brussels Fire Department. The project is being lead by the university of Ulster and focuses on the transport by hydrogen vehicles in tunnels and confined spaces.
TO DO: members: fill in a questionnaire about the legislation, prevention measures and recommendations concerning hydrogen, that will be sent by Tom.
Tom explains a second project, linked to Hydrogen, the HyResponder project (follow-up of the HyResponse project). The aim of this project is to distribute training concerning hydrogen to first responders via the organization of train-the-trainer in different European countries. Belgium is a partner, as well as CTIF (represented by Dennis Davis). CTIF’s main role will be the dissemination of the information. The kick-off meeting will be organized in January 2020, Tom will keep the members informed. For example, it is not yet sure if the project will only work on Hydrogen.
Next, Tom shows the presentation of a proposal for a new European project, with as main objective the creation of a training program about electrical vehicles. CTIF is asked to be a partner in this project, mostly again for dissemination of information. It would be a project via Erasmus+, which means it will funded for 100%. The proposed timeline speaks of 36 months.
The members agree that it is important to have more information about what kind of workload this means, because it will take time to participate in the project.
Tom explains that it is possible to participate by having a member of this commission as manager for the project. But the actual work can be done by colleagues from the national fire departments.
For most members it is difficult to give an answer right now and decide for their country. Some people are not yet convinced, others members see a direct link between this project and the WG which can help to share information and learn new things.
TO DO: Tom: send the presentation to all members
TO DO: Commission: give an advice about participating or not
→ Next meetings
The next meeting will be combined with the Technical Days in France. Michel will probably ask the Commission to act as speaker. The meeting will be a virtual meeting, so that all who is available, can participate (even if they are not in France).
TO DO: Tom: contact Michel about the practical information and take care of the invitation.
The second meeting will be combined with the CTIF Symposium in Norway. It will have to be checked with the organization of the Commission can meet on the day prior to the symposium.
TO DO: Tom: contact Svein and Ole to ask about this possibility.
Concerning 2021, the spring meeting will be organized in February in Lapland, in the north of Finland. This needs to be arranged and confirmed as soon as possible, in order to have a good location and hotel. The winter meeting will be held in Luxemburg in November 2021.
→ Closing of the meeting: Tom closes the meeting. He thanks Ruediger for the good organization, his attentiveness and the visit to Mercedes-Benz.
He thanks all members for their presence and active participation to the meeting, which made it a fruitful event, which much exchange.
Natalie De Backer
Tom Van Esbroeck
Ivana Kruijff-Korbayova (only on Thursday)
Participants via Zoom
Michel Gentilleau (on Friday)